Whooping Cough Epidemic Halted in Jefferson County

5/23/2012

Jefferson County Health Emergency Room Director

Whooping cough epidemic stopped through the Church in Jefferson County.

Churches in Jefferson County WA used our strategy to mobilize prayer and establish councils to connect in 7 spheres of society. On Mar 27 they met and a County Commissioner asked them to pray about the whooping cough epidemic. Last night I was with them when the director of emergency services addressed this Council. As of April 13 there has not been one case reported. From epidemic proportions to zero.

The PTLeader reported on 4/10/12 that the whooping cough had become an epidemic all though there were only two cases reported in the last two weeks (note the time the Church began to pray above). The headline in the PTLeader on 5/15/2012 states "No New Cases Here Since April 13.."

In December the police chief asked them to pray about crime and it decreased by more than 50% compared to the Christmas holidays last year. Click here for Ap. Jake's testimony.

Are you looking to your faith in action to transform your community with real results? This testimony is the power of a united Church working together. Discover the strategy and principles this powerful series on "Strategic Leadership." Click here.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/27/2012 04:07:16 pm

This is fascinating. Are you claiming that this is evidence that prayer works? I'm sure you must have anticipated the skeptics' questions: why is this not simply the results of whooping cough vaccine, luck, or other natural explanations?

I'd like to get your thoughts on this.

Best regards,
Bob

Tim Taylor link

5/28/2012 02:34:07 am

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying and it is based on my experience. Since 2005 I've done my best to apply a scientific method where in you change one variable to test results against a hypothesis. While I cannot do this in a controlled environment I've enough experience I believe to prove the case. This is just one of many cases. Here is a page with a few of the testimonies (results) we've been tracking for the last 7 years. http://www.ortprayer.org/results.html. The same minister responsible for the testimony above directed the Churches prayer on crime (request by police chief) and he saw remarkable results. He is one of 13 cities we've recorded decreased crime in. This article illustrates well how the one element changed and the results changed. http://www.ortprayer.org/feb-2012-testimonies.html. You will find 30 documented signs, wonders, miracles recorded in my book Operation Rolling Thunder the Revised Edition. It takes us up through 2010. Since then the number has more than doubled. This does not include all of the personal healing testimonies (ie. lung cancer healed) nor how lives, laws, nor situations were changed. These testimonies are merely a sampling. Not to mention all of my own personal testimonies where in Jesus Christ intervened upon my behalf in very personal and supernatural ways.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 03:09:16 am

Simply praying for X and then X happening is not sufficient evidence to argue that prayer was the actual cause of X. The plausible natural explanation always trumps the supernatural explanation, wouldn't you agree?

Confirmation bias is a problem that all of us are susceptible to, and you haven't done enough IMO to show that this doesn't account for the results you're perceiving.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 03:16:51 am

Just to clarify, I'd be delighted to find strong evidence that prayer works, but in this case there are natural explanations that haven't been ruled out. If this case can be strengthened, I'd like to blog about it.

Tim Taylor

5/28/2012 03:40:54 am

Bob do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? Have you met him? Do you consider yourself a Christian or nor? (sincerely asking just so I can understand more of where you are coming from)

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 03:53:44 am

I am not a Christian.

But obviously, being a Christian is not a prerequisite for evaluating a scientific claim.

Tim Taylor

5/28/2012 04:24:56 am

Thanks for clarifying that is very helpful to me in understanding where you are coming from. You are correct in that you don't have to be a Christian to examine a claim. In fact, I commend you.

In 2005 I was challenged by one from Salem University stating that I could not prove prayer did anything. This launched me on my attempt to document my findings as best I could. Here is my challenge, I do not have a complete environment I can control. But I have also done my best to accurately report what has occurred and focus on controlling a few key variables. The primary one being 24/7 prayer in Jesus name.

You stated "Simply praying for X and then X happening is not sufficient evidence to argue that prayer was the actual cause of X. The plausible natural explanation always trumps the supernatural explanation, wouldn't you agree?"

No, I don't. I've had to much experience that says otherwise. Ie. my minister in Burma reports last year fasting and praying for a woman who was barren for 20 years, doctors say she cannot have children. My good friend and Pastor Dan in Everett reports how they prayed for a former athlete who had no cartiledge in his knee. Xray confirms he has cartiledge in his knee. Ap. John Mark reports after prayer they did a sonogram and confirm she now has a baby. Same minister leads people in fasting and prayer for a man dying of lung cancer, healed. Doctor verified and the man testified. I prayed for a man in Sacred Heart Hospital, doctors gave him a 5% chance of living, and not only did he not die but recovered in record time so much so they wrote an article calling him the miracle man, I've seen God open deaf ears, eyesight (Mexico 1995) such that the people did things they could not do before to demonstrate they were healed, heal many and deliver demon possessed in Ethiopia, heal blind eyes and in that same meeting I saw many healed at one time and I never even began to pray. God's presence showed up and began healing people left and right. Many were crying as they testified because Jesus was so personal to them. I was shocked personally because the Lord interrupted my teaching and began to function. So when an 85 year old woman legally blind, known by those in the meeting for years begins to describe features on my face in detail with her friends witnessing this. Well, I don't doubt. The joy and tears streaming down her face says volumes.

Finally my own 88 year old mother experienced a stroke last year. For 6 weeks she is confined needing 24/7 care. When I took my turn to go and care for her for 2 weeks I did what the bible instructed me to do, I prayed and by the time I left, she was living on her own again. Her remarkable improvement began when I arrived, prayed and we exercised faith in Jesus name (my Mom prayed with me). Over one year later she is still doing fine and living on her own. She went from needing total care to no care. Then add in all of the supernatural occurrences that have occurred around the strategy we use in cities and counties and we see things just like recorded in Acts 2, signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth.

The Bible tells me in Mark 16:17 that those that believe shall lay hands upon the sick and they shall recover. This is why I and some Christians pray for the sick. It is through faith in Jesus names the miracles are done.

Acts 3:12-16
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
NKJV

Here is the challenge you face.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV

Faith in Jesus name motivated by love is what brings these things to pass. The biggest miracle is that he loved you and I enough to die for us, pay the price so we did not have to be eternally separated from God because of our sin.

God is alive today and I have a marvelous personal relationship with God daily. It is not just when "people go to heaven." This is how all these miracles occur. He does it because He loves us and the signs, the evidence points to His primary message. He loves you and I and wants to have fellowship with us.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 04:38:55 am

<blockquote>(Just testing)</blockquote>

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 04:56:26 am

“I do not have a complete environment I can control.”

And that seems to be the weakness in your project. “Prayer MIGHT have caused X” is not an interesting claim. Sure, prayer might have caused it, but so might supernatural pixies on Pluto.

“My good friend and Pastor Dan in Everett reports how they prayed for a former athlete who had no cartiledge in his knee. Xray confirms he has cartiledge in his knee.”

Then what we need is before-and-after documentation with a single doctor (or medical team) following the whole process. Surely this would be worth reporting to the medical world, assuming that this miraculous event happened as you say it did. Without that, this is one of thousands of poorly documented, anecdotal claims that don’t stand up to scrutiny.

Can this information withstand scientific scrutiny? That it hasn’t seems, from the skeptic’s standpoint, as just one more nutty claim not worth believing in but, from the believer’s standpoint, as a missed opportunity. There is already a mountain of claims with poor evidence. Simply adding to this pile does little (except give people who want support for their preconceptions a pat on the head). If you’ll excuse the unsolicited advice, you ought to package up some serious evidence (before-and-after x-rays, for example, with thorough medical documentation and the acknowledgement of the miracle by the doctor), make it public, and invite the (unpleasant) scientific scrutiny. Only then would you have anything credible to someone who doesn’t already believe.

“God's presence showed up and began healing people left and right.”

Why does God not simply do what you or I would do in the same position—just heal people?

“So when an 85 year old woman legally blind, known by those in the meeting for years begins to describe features on my face in detail with her friends witnessing this. Well, I don't doubt. The joy and tears streaming down her face says volumes.”

Was there a follow-up investigation? A church service can be a very emotional experience. Remove the emotion and see if the cure remains.

“She went from needing total care to no care.”

I’m happy for you, but again you haven’t ruled out the natural explanation. People usually get better with time. No prayer required. “A miracle happened” requires a mountain of evidence.

Neil Gilligan link

6/8/2012 03:31:10 pm

Bob, here is something to be skeptical about, I prayed for this deaf woman, deaf for 20 years, and after the demon of deafness was cast out she could hear! What about that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm6Dkr09nPs

Bob Seidensticker link

6/8/2012 03:38:17 pm

Neil:

Spiritual impediment? Evil spirit? I’m pretty sure that demons and spirits don’t cause deafness.

She still had to use sign language. If God is going to heal her, why not make her able to communicate like you or I do?

Mriana

6/8/2012 10:18:38 pm

I had no idea that deafness involved a demon. Hearing problems run in my family and the majority of them are Xians. Not once did they seek a healing service for the congenital nerve deafness that runs in our family. Because of that, I am a bit offended you consider hearing impairments a form of demon possession. There is nothing wrong with a person who does not hear nor do they have demons, which even my relatives would vouch the same. IMHO, I would say there is something wrong with hearing people who believe one has a demon if they have a hearing impairment. I feel sorry for the poor woman you put through hell, making her think she had a demon. There was absolutely nothing wrong with her. She wasn't the one who had the problem and my Xian relatives would agree. In some ways, hearing loss is a gift. I seriously doubt you cast out any "demons of deafness", because there is no such thing. Deafness of any form is normal, despite what ignorant hearing people may think. Even as we age, humans loose some or all of their hearing. It's rare when one does not. Cochlear implants help some people hear better, but it does not remove the fact they are deaf. Remove the implant and they are still deaf, but that does not mean there is something wrong with them.

Mriana

6/8/2012 10:29:30 pm

Oh please! I just watched the video and that was purely show. She didn't hear a thing, just acted on cue as she was told to do. Yes, I know what she signed, because I can read sign language, but it was purely an act. She still cannot hear, because of the damage meningitis caused to between her brain and her cochlea. If you really believe she can now hear, you're really being fooled. Sorry, man, but she's still deaf and you're still abusing her with your religious beliefs (as well as the person in the video). It's probably a good thing she acted on cue to make you think she was "cured", because all you'd do is continue the religious abuse. The best thing for her is that she gets away from such religious abuse. What is being done here is pure religious and spiritual abuse, which should be loathed by everyone, because it does great harm psychologically. If anyone is the demon, it's the person abusing her religiously and spiritually.

Tim Taylor

6/9/2012 03:26:57 am

Thanks Neil, I've seen God do similar things. But to address our atheist and humanist friends..... The scripture are below and what they observed in the video would be similar to the kind of prayer that the $250,000 study I referred Bob to that he refused to consider. Medical doctors did a study following Heidi Bakers' ministry in Africa and measured "statistical improvement" in both blindness and deafness.

Matt 11:4-6

4 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."
NKJV

Mark 9:25-29

25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!" 26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, "He is dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.

28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?"

29 So He said to them, "This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting."
NKJV

Luke 7:22-23

22 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."
NKJV

Then to further drive home the point that our Lord heals and does miracles, here is another testimony of what just happened. The Lord grew a babies leg out. Confirmed by doctors earlier this week. http://www.kingdomleague.org/3/post/2012/06/mothers-prayer-answered-babys-short-leg-grows-out.html

Bob Seidensticker link

6/9/2012 03:55:18 pm

“he refused to consider”

Why bother? All I’ve asked for are things that you can do it for free. If you cared to strengthen your argument, that is.

“our Lord heals and does miracles”

Why bother with the Bible quotes? Just because it’s written, I should find it compelling?

"The Lord grew a babies leg out. Confirmed by doctors earlier this week.”

I saw no confirmation, just a claim.

This is what I’ve been talking about--move from mere anecdote to an actual case with doctors making the claims, not laymen.

Tim

5/28/2012 06:07:11 am

There is both natural healing and supernatural. God designed our bodies to heal itself as long as it is provided the proper nutrients. The supernatural occurs when it goes beyond the normal course of events.

Science cannot explain how my mother could not speak more than two words after her stroke in a cohesive manner, and then after my arrival and prayer (drugs, doctors, etc. nothing else changed) she could communicate well enough such that she could function on her own.

In 2006 I need surgery on my knee again (torn miniscus) and I go to a meeting with a minister who has a gift of healing, God heals it and the symptoms stop, ie my knee no longer slips out of joint nor catches. I could not run on that knee since 1999. Now I can! 6 years later it still works. No surgery like I had the first time it occurred. An emotional experience did not do that and no one can convince me other wise. It is my personal testimony.

We receive eye witness testimony in court today. When a minister who works with me says a doctor confirms that a barren woman for 20 years has conceive and the sonogram proves it.... after prayer in Jesus name. When my other pastor friends testifies they saw the xrays of the man in his congregation showing before and after, well I don't question him. I believe it.

It is also why we continue seeing so many answers to prayer. I've taken this to an even greater level challenging the Church to serve their communities by interacting with health officials, police chiefs, etc. Say what you will, but the bottom line is, we've seen police chiefs, sheriffs, mayors, business people all pleasantly surprised and questioning when we've seen duplicateable results produced.

I was with the County Commissioner who asked these guys to pray for the epidemic and I was there two months later when the Director of Emergency Services was at their meeting and the report came out that there had been no new cases reported since April 13. It went from 70 to 0.

The folks and officials whose county was affected, they are very appreciative and thankful. The situation is so bad because man's ideas have created messes financially and in the health arena that they don't have solutions to today.

Some are beginning to recognize there is another solution, a supernatural one delivered through those who believe in Jesus Christ. Those who see this are "those who believe"

Mark 11:22-24 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God. 23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. 24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.
NKJV

We see answers to prayer corporately and personally all the time. From small to big. It is because prayer is not a religious exercise but a personal relationship with a living God who loves us like a Father loves his children.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 06:55:58 am

“There is both natural healing and supernatural.”

How do you know? This is precisely what you’re trying to prove, isn’t it?

“Science cannot explain how my mother could not speak more than two words after her stroke in a cohesive manner, and then after my arrival and prayer (drugs, doctors, etc. nothing else changed) she could communicate well enough such that she could function on her own.”

My mother also had a stroke. She also improved. I don’t see the miracle.

If you think there is one, you need the documentation. (I’m not nagging here, just trying to help you make a stronger case.)

“An emotional experience did not do that [healing] and no one can convince me other wise. It is my personal testimony.”

And the problem is that your personal testimony can’t convince me. I gotta have the science.

“I don't question him. I believe it.”

But you would question the claim if it came from some nutty religion that you don’t accept, right? If so, you understand the position I’m in.

“It is also why we continue seeing so many answers to prayer.”

If you pray to a jug of milk, sometimes you’ll get what you prayed for. You see why we need solid evidence to rule out alternative explanations, right?

“there had been no new cases reported since April 13. It went from 70 to 0.”

So present this information to the Centers for Disease Control or a doctor or an epidemiologist or some other authority. Would they be convinced? Would they think that no alternate natural explanation is possible?

Epidemics run their course. Eventually, the number of people infected with the plague during the Black Death dropped to zero as well.

“The situation is so bad because man's ideas have created messes financially and in the health arena that they don't have solutions to today.”

“Man’s ideas” have come through for us: vaccines, antibiotics, anesthetic, germ theory, water and sewer systems, etc. How many of us reading this page wouldn’t be here without modern medicine and technology?

“whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.”

Sounds nice. But does this work? I see no evidence.

Charlene Allen

5/28/2012 11:14:25 am

Scientific proof is great in many areas of life, but there are somethings in life that proof becomes a matter of truth in the life of a person.

Take for example a young boy who loved and adores his parents. A tragic event occurs and his mother is taken away and the father in his deep hurt begins to hurt and abuse the little boy. This little boy who once believed there was a God and parents that loved and protected him is now faced with the reality of pain and bruises at night. This little boy does not look to science for an answer, but for him, the truth is love hurts; trusting - hurts; and believing - hurts.

As this young boy grows, his wounds are carried into manhood. Science says we are products of our environment, but the Bible says Jesus makes all things new.

This young boy grows to hurt others as he was hurt because he believes that is the only way. If he trusts in science, he could find 100 scientists to state as a fact, he is a statistic. But the little boy wants to heal. The little boy wants to be made new. Without scientific evidence, this young boy, now a grown man, decides to believe he can be made new and paces his belief in Jesus. There is no science in faith, faith is believing the word and character of a person that he will do what he said he would do. This hurt little boy places his faith in Jesus and he became new. It was not a scientific fact, but an internal truth that was born out of a desire to change and step outside the natural experience, because for him, the natural world was killing his hopes, his dreams, and his life - none of which can be defined scientifically.

People receive healing because they believe by faith if they step out on nothing, the promises of God will make something appear. It's not the church that changed the outcome, it was faith in God. You see, without faith, it is impossible to not only please God, but also to see God.

So, do you want your science to be made real or your faith? The little boy in the story chose faith and his life was never the same. It's all a matter of choice.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 11:30:26 am

Your story about the boy is all natural. We needn’t imagine anything supernatural to explain it.

Tim Taylor

5/28/2012 01:23:04 pm

In reply to "“There is both natural healing and supernatural.”
How do you know? This is precisely what you’re trying to prove, isn’t it?"

No, actually not. I have proof, I am merely testifying as to what I have seen. In fact, it is impossible for you to convince me otherwise.

It is amazing in that the more I testify, and others testify, the more miracles we see. The proof is in the results we've seen and continue to experience..... regularly.

Bob, you said "If you pray to a jug of milk, sometimes you’ll get what you prayed for. You see why we need solid evidence to rule out alternative explanations, right?" I'll encourage you to test that hypothesis because a jug of milk can't hear anything and I won't test that. It is foolish. The key is Jesus is alive and we have a dynamic marvelous relationship with a risen Lord. Every other religion is based on someone dead. Mine is not a religion, but a relationship with a living God who overcame death and rose from the dead as witnessed by over 500 people and the very miracles done in His name testify He is alive. The miracles occur because Jesus is alive.

What I am trying to prove is there is help that can bless and help our communities.

I and others like me see them because the key (scripture says) "when you pray, believe that you receive...). There are two factors. First you have to have a relationship with Jesus so you have the living God to pray and converse with, and the second, you have to believe.)

You do not do either. The scripture is clear about why some do not see nor hear. 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV

I'm sharing with you what I've seen and see. In fact, I'm copying a testimony just received today. If you knew what the Bible said in the Old Testament in Joel 2, and what the scripture says in Acts 2, this would make more sense, but for those of us who know the Lord and what the scripture says........... this ........ is an example of a miracle: Ap. John Mark - Burma/Myanmar

This is the same one who reported about a barren woman conceiving (confirmed by sonogram by doctors) & the man with lung cancer healed............ Dear Apostle Tim,

Greetings in Jesus' name. I hope that you all are fine and you celebrate the Pentecost very joyfully. We also had a wonderful time on the celebration of the day of Pentecost. We saw the miracle on our celebration. Here there is no rain at all for the whole month, it is very extremely hot. We cannot bear it. But on the day of Pentecost on Sunday, we pray to God for Holy Spirit to come and touch us.
Immediately strong wind come to us, and full rain fallen down and even the weather is reasonable, comfortable. We sing, we praise and we dance. Our God answer our prayer and show His presence among us.....

I'll promise you, you cannot convince them otherwise, neither can you prove otherwise. Just like you cannot prove my knee healed.

Here is a test you could do. If what I am talking about is just bunk, like praying to a jug of milk. Then why don't you do a test this yourself. Ask Jesus if He is real to make himself known to you.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/28/2012 01:36:42 pm

“it is impossible for you to convince me otherwise”

I bet you’re right!

“a jug of milk can't hear anything and I won't test that. It is foolish.”

Of course it’s foolish. But are the results any better when praying to God than praying to a jug of milk?

I apologize if this comes across as harsh, but I’m simply trying to get you to move from a claim where your word is all we’ve got to something that is reliably evidenced and can be evaluated by objective and even hostile experts from a scientific standpoint.

“The key is Jesus is alive and we have a dynamic marvelous relationship with a risen Lord.”

This is theology, not evidence. Let’s focus on the evidence first and see if there’s any point in the theology.

“a living God who overcame death and rose from the dead as witnessed by over 500 people and the very miracles done in His name testify He is alive.”

I don’t find this compelling, and I'd be happy to discuss the reasons why, but perhaps we should focus on the miracle claims first.

“First you have to have a relationship with Jesus so you have the living God to pray and converse with, and the second, you have to believe.”

You have to believe to make miracles, or you have to believe to SEE the miracles? Surely even nonbelievers can see the miracles. Doesn’t Matthew say that one of the reasons Jesus did his miracles was to show evidence of his divinity?

“I'm sharing with you what I've seen and see.”

And I’m trying to find reliable evidence that would be convincing to a third party. It sounds like all you have is beliefs and claims. Is that right? No complete package of medical evidence showing x-rays from before and after, plus a doctor’s statement of the miracle, for example?

“Immediately strong wind come to us, and full rain fallen down and even the weather is reasonable, comfortable.”

The weather changes. Don’t we need more evidence than this to see the hand of God?

“Ask Jesus if He is real to make himself known to you.”

Done. Got no answer.

Mriana

5/28/2012 02:34:34 pm

Personally, I see it as evidence that vaccinations work and prayer had nothing to do with it. You'd get the same results if everyone, with few exceptions, were vaccinated and no one prayed about it. That's the scientific medical truth. No demons involved, just like there were no demons involved with the Plague either.

Tim Taylor

5/29/2012 12:22:56 am

I'm not saying Doctors, vaccines, medicine etc. is not good. It is and we are thankful. But man has limits where as God does the miraculous. I asked a South African (68 year old) whom I prayed for three weeks ago in Europe for a testimony last night. I'm pasting it below. Until last night, I was not even aware that he had consulted his chiropractor. Then I'm going to paste a few links to other healings that involve consulting doctors as well. One of these is an unfolding story posted on CNN.

From: Ken
Sent: May 29, 2012 12:46 AM
To: Tim Taylor
Subject: RE: Favour requested

Hi Tim,

It all started when I was at home, it was raining and I was trying to clean a drain, as I tried to get up I slipped and fell on the concrete, hitting a step on my coccyx area and cracked a Rib, we had planned a trip to do a Med Cruise and nearly cancelled, something told me I had to go. I knew it would not be easy, but was determined to go no matter what.

When we went on board, we were most lucky to sit at a table with Tim and Brenda, what a wonderful couple, and wow were we blessed, I think it was ordained that we sat at that table, in fact it was a miracle, we prayed at each meal, holding hands and Tim asked God to heal me, I was at the time having to walk around with a walking stick, well two wonderful things happened, one is I healed very quickly and soon dispensed with the stick, the second is that, it brought my daughter and I so much closer together. Every time we prayed, I could feel the presence of God and Jesus. It was such a comfort

When I got home and visited the Chiropractor, he was amazed that it had healed so quickly, considering my age, I am 68. I told him what had happened on the cruise.

Regards,

Ken

Tim Taylor

5/29/2012 12:34:21 am

CNN Story - May 29, 2012 published by Senior Medical Correspondent - http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/29/health/faith-copelands-bacteria/index.html

References 11 healings confirmed by a doctor - for details see the mans book - http://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/the-world/eleven-healings/.

Dr. in Kenya - http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2012/s12040072.htm

Dr. John G Lake (doctor of theology - not medicine) http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/john-g-lake-man-faith-and-works - over 100,000 documented miracles of healing from 1914 to 1919 such that Spokane known as healthiest city in America. Besides the bible we've been inspired by modern ministers like Lake to pray for the sick.

It is our habit to encourage people to go to their doctors and have them verify what has occurred. We have not kept these reports just like I've not asked for a sworn affidavidit from Ken's chiropractor. I believe what he reported and frankly, the most important one is all of this is the patient. If they are healed and doing well, praise God. We are thankful for both natural and the supernatural because God designed these marvelous bodies to heal themselves if provided the proper nutrients and care. Man is still trying to learn how it all works. So we are thankful for doctors, nutritionists, chiropractors, etc. but as the CNN story illustrate, sometimes the doctors are limited in what they can do and this is when the supernatural power of God enters in as His people pray for the sick, just like Jesus did.

This is because Jesus loves people, and this is why we pray for the sick and our communities. It is to serve and love those whom Jesus loves and died for that they might have a relationship with Him.

Tim Taylor

5/29/2012 12:40:43 am

I forgot to highlight from the CNN article what Dad said the doctors said....."The words I hear from the medical professionals to describe Aimee's continued recovery are 'astonishing, incredible, confounding, mind boggling, and unbelievable,' " Copeland wrote on Aimee's Facebook page on May 12. "My favorite word is miracle." http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/29/health/faith-copelands-bacteria/index.html

Mriana

5/29/2012 12:43:09 am

I'm not sure what the letter proves. I have a friend, about the same age, who was in a car accident recently, which put her in ICU for about a week. Few people knew about it that first week, but the drs manage to fix her collapsed lung shortly after she arrived in the ER. Nobody knew where she was or that she had the accident at that time, so there were no prayers at that moment, but her life was saved by the doctors (thank you, wonderful doctors) and she only spent a week in ICU at most with a broken rib and other broken bones, before going to a regular room and then another week there, before going to rehab. Now, of course, she is a Xian and therefore was more than likely praying herself, but even if she was unable to do so at the time, the doctors saved her life and should be given credit.

So again, I'm not sure how the letter you shared is evidence or even proof of anything. I have to agree with Bob concerning the things you've said. Medical and technological science makes the most logical and reasonable sense in such matters. However, prayer, like medication, can be helpful psychologically, so I'll give it that much credit.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/29/2012 03:29:38 am

Yes, I was aware of the girl with the bacterial infection. I’ll grant you that living is a lot better than the alternative, but this story is a sign of God’s love? That this girl is now in critical condition, that it’s put her family through hell, and (assuming she comes out of this alive) she’ll be missing a leg, her other foot, and both hands??

How about if God stopped it from happening in the first place? Or how about if God now replaces her missing limbs? As Mriana said, the doctors are the heroes in this story.

I don’t understand the supposed value of prayer. “Ask and ye shall receive” is obviously not how it works. I’m confident that if this girl’s family asked God for new limbs for Aimee, it wouldn’t happen. Prayer doesn’t “work” as that word is defined in the dictionary. My car “works.” My PC “works.” The electrical outlet “works.” They’re reliable. Prayer is so unreliable that its value is indistinguishable from chance.

And why should prayer even be necessary? It obviously can’t be giving God new information. God supposedly has a plan, and to imagine that he’ll change his perfect plan makes no sense. Do we imagine God says, “Y’know, I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a good idea—I’ll change my plan.”? Or “It’s better that you not get that, but since you asked nicely, I’ll give it to you”?

I’ve tried to give you a chance here, asking for serious, real world evidence, but all you’ve given me is anecdotes. Do you not care if your message is compelling or not to skeptics?

Tim

5/29/2012 12:31:52 pm

Bob, it is interesting to me how you pick and choose which pieces of stories to choose to focus on.

You've ignored the testimony from Ken's chiropractor. You don't even mention the book that a doctor has written detailing 11 cases. http://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/the-world/eleven-healings/.

I don't believe you are serious.

If you were a skeptic seeking truth you'd at least make an attempt to acknowledge doctors quotes, stats, or what others have quoted their doctors as saying. You'd have at least acknowledged some of the statistical tendencies reported in the article.

But you ignore that and then come back with this statement which brings this whole thing full circle. I marvel at your statement frankly.

You said " I’ll grant you that living is a lot better than the alternative, but this story is a sign of God’s love? That this girl is now in critical condition, that it’s put her family through hell, and (assuming she comes out of this alive) she’ll be missing a leg, her other foot, and both hands??"

You've ignored the father's testimony, her body was shutting down and the thing that precedes the turn around is prayer. You failed to acknowledge the CNN reporter's investigative report of ... .

"The words I hear from the medical professionals to describe Aimee's continued recovery are 'astonishing, incredible, confounding, mind boggling, and unbelievable,' " Copeland wrote on Aimee's Facebook page on May 12. ...

You said How about if God stopped it from happening in the first place? " This is what brings this whole thing full circle. You are blind and cannot see what God has done.

Well that is EXACTLY what the original story was all about. But you don't see the lives that WERE NOT affected by whooping cough. The County Commissioner asked us to pray. The news reports were fearful. Remarkably the end coincided with corporate prayer by the Church. It is an expression of God's love, however, you don't or won't believe so you cannot see.

So I find your statement truly remarkable and further illustrating your chosen blindness. Praying for the epedimic to stop, and IT STOPPED, is an expression of God's love.

Why is prayer necessary? It is because He has chosen to work through people. Those who have accepted Jesus and build relationship with Him do so through reading the Bible and praying. It is a relationship, not a trick or a religious exercise. Have people of poor character abused this? Certianly, they are called false apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors, evangelists. Then their are the ones who out of love, faith with great character see God move powerfully.

Faith works by love. Jesus moved with compassion. There are many today who do the same.

Luke 8:54 shares the story of how Jesus raised a little girl from the dead. He only allowed those who believed & her parents to come in with him and he put those that mocked outside. Jesus raised the little girl from the dead. The lesson, faith works by love and those that mock hinder the miraculous.

Why, here is another study - http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/09000/Study_of_the_Therapeutic_Effects_of_Proximal.5.aspx?WT.mc_id=HPxADx20100319xMP - this study was performed by Brown, Candy Gunther PhD; Mory, Stephen C. MD; Williams, Rebecca MB BChir, DTM&H; McClymond, Michael J. PhD - they studied those prayed for with diseased eyes and hearing loss and the doctors state significant statistical improvement in both areas.

The real issue here is not healing. It is really about your eternal destiny. You have a challenge, your chosen belief positions you to be blinded by Satan, the god of this world. The bible says:

2 Cor 4:3-6
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Here is the bottom line, Jesus loves you, and He died for you! He came that you might have life and have it more abundantly.

I am praying for you and all those who've responding to this article, that the veil would lift and you would see the great love Christ has for each of you. That is the greatest miracle of all. He died that we might have eternal life. He overcame death, hell and the grave.

His power is even manifested today through some who pray and see the dead raised too. http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07070094.htm

In Jesus name. Peace.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/29/2012 05:16:23 pm

Tim:

“You've ignored the testimony from Ken's chiropractor.”

Well, kinda. It’s the story of a man with an injury that healed with time. I’m not sure that it’s even remarkable, let alone miraculous.

“You don't even mention the book that a doctor has written detailing 11 cases.”

How do you think we should treat these 11 cases? They look simply like anecdotes to me.

How do you see them? For example, you see that each of these stories is as reliably a miracle as (what?). For example, “I am as confident that each of these stories is a miracle as I am that Barak Obama is president.” Or “… that William Tell was a historical figure.” Or what?

“If you were a skeptic seeking truth …”

… then I’d give you a hearing. And I think I have. You’re the one making the extraordinary claim (prayer produces miracles), so you have the burden of proof.

“You've ignored the father's testimony, her body was shutting down and the thing that precedes the turn around is prayer.”

What else preceded the turnaround? Maybe the father had a sandwich. Maybe the mother looked out the window. That prayer preceded the turnaround is pretty paltry evidence, I’m afraid. You’ve established no causal link.

"The words I hear from the medical professionals to describe Aimee's continued recovery are 'astonishing, incredible, confounding, mind boggling, and unbelievable'"

This is the testimony from the father. He’s in an emotional turmoil so I’m not sure he’s an unbiased, objective observer.

The CNN story makes clear that this girl is alive, not because of prayer, but because of the hard work of the medical staff and the remarkable medicine they had at their disposal.

I’m open to evidence that prayer made the difference in this or any other story, but I simply haven’t seen it.

“You are blind and cannot see what God has done.”

And WHAT HAS GOD DONE? There’s no reason to attribute anything in any of these stories to God.

“you don't see the lives that WERE NOT affected by whooping cough.”

OK. How is this relevant? The epidemic has run its course—far quicker than if we didn’t have an advanced medical infrastructure to administer vaccines. Again, where is God’s hand here?

“Remarkably the end coincided with corporate prayer by the Church.”

It’s great that the epidemic stopped. Ask a medical professional how the epidemic would be expected to play out without divine intervention. My guess is that the way it DID play out wasn’t miraculous.

“It is an expression of God's love, however, you don't or won't believe so you cannot see.”

If there is a natural explanation, why give God the credit? Isn’t God powerful enough that we can expect bona fide miracles from him? Or must he content himself with a vague “Well, that COULDA been God’s hand …”?

“Praying for the epedimic to stop, and IT STOPPED, is an expression of God's love.”

Sounds like praying for the tide to go out right at high tide. That’s smart timing, not God’s action.

“Jesus raised the little girl from the dead.”

I understand that that story is in the Bible, but I don’t find it compelling.

“this study was performed by …”

Interesting. This is more the kind of information I need. (And I’m surprised you don’t want to raise your anecdotes to this level as well.)

“your chosen belief positions you to be blinded by Satan, the god of this world”

“Chosen”? How do you choose beliefs? I can’t chose to believe in leprechauns, for example.

“He died that we might have eternal life.”

Rather hard to believe, as you can imagine! I gotta have that evidence.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/31/2012 12:35:20 am

Tim:

I've written a short summary of this topic at my blog. I hope I've correctly summarized your position. You're welcome to add comments. Here's the link:

http://crossexaminedblog.com/2012/05/31/claims-that-prayer-cures-disease/

Tim

5/31/2012 02:41:18 am

No, I do not believe you have accurately portrayed my position neither have you accurately portrayed what was presented in a number of areas some of which for time I won't address. The anecdotal testimonies were supplemented with articles and research that include statistics and doctors opinions etc. to which you never allude and dismiss without acknowledgement.

You've called references to sources like Dr. Casdorph anecdotal with doing obviously no study of the resource material.
http://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/the-world/eleven-healings/

Excerpt - The other 10 case histories come from the book The Miracles by Dr H Richard Casdorph an experienced doctor and medical researcher who has published more than a hundred research papers in a career that has spanned almost 6 decades. In the mid 70s he undertook a research project with a difference. He interviewed ten people who claimed to have been miraculously healed of serious conditions. He examined all the case histories – X-rays, medical reports, etc – and also submitted them to medical specialists for review.

Second, you briefly acknowledge that this was the kind of report (link below) you would like to see, but never acknowledged the results of the report. It is like you want to ignore anything that might disagree with the position you have taken.
http://journals.lww.com/smajournalonline/Fulltext/2010/09000/Study_of_the_Therapeutic_Effects_of_Proximal.5.aspx?WT.mc_id=HPxADx20100319xMP - this study was performed by Brown, Candy Gunther PhD; Mory, Stephen C. MD; Williams, Rebecca MB BChir, DTM&H; McClymond, Michael J. PhD -
.
Excerpts from the finding: There was a highly significant improvement in hearing & visual improvement. The study also noted that the west seemed to see less due to the lack of belief.

Prayer was statistically shown to improve peoples hearing loss and eyesight.

No acknowledgement on your part of the findings by this team of doctors. You either did not bother to look or, you are just choosing to ignore anything that does not support your hypothesis.

If you would like us to perform an in depth study with a level of scientific scrutiny to which you say you want, then provide the money to fund the study. I'd be happy to work with any medical team of researchers. The research above only cost $200,000.

So, no, I do not believe you have accurately portrayed this dialogue.

Bob Seidensticker link

5/31/2012 05:36:27 pm

“No, I do not believe you have accurately portrayed my position”

My goal was certainly not to mischaracterize your position (that doesn’t make me look good).

I’ll try to add an addendum (shortly) to the post that points to these claims. Thanks for correcting this.

I notice, however, that you did not respond to my critique of your pertussis claims. Am I on target?

“provide the money to fund the study”

I don’t know why big money is required for a study. I’m simply pointing out that, from a skeptics standpoint, anecdotal evidence (which you’ve provided—I’m ignoring your links here) counts for pretty much nothing. This is dime-a-dozen stuff. Since you seem to have it, collecting the evidence and presenting to an independent researcher seems not only easy to do but absolutely critical for your position. Your cries of poverty make no sense.

Tim

6/2/2012 05:20:15 am

Thanks! I appreciate your efforts to exercise some sort of journalistic standard of ethics.

Part of the challenge in responding completely is a time factor (ie. pertussis claims). I'm not always in the office. This information comes from the same article that is headlined "No new cases here since April 13, but whooping cough bacteria still circulating in Jefferson County"

An epidemic is "the rapid spread or increase in the occurrence of something." So the epidemic, the spread, the increase, halted.

Did vaccines and medicine play a part. Well certainly, but so did prayer in Jesus name. We frequently see results like this.

There were 21 sick people still recovering, but again, no new cases. Hence the epidemic stopped. They were infected when whooping cough was on the increase. They are getting better.

Regarding "I’m simply pointing out that, from a skeptics standpoint, anecdotal evidence (which you’ve provided—I’m ignoring your links here) counts for pretty much nothing."

Here is what I learned! First, it was my understanding that you sought truth. I communicated that I did not have a controlled environment. You said "Just to clarify, I'd be delighted to find strong evidence that prayer works, but in this case there are natural explanations that haven't been ruled out. If this case can be strengthened, I'd like to blog about it."

You've also stated above you've ignored my links. Ie. the link to a study that certainly seemed to fit the criteria you sought, the study that cost $200,000 that statistically illustrated prayer improved peopled physical condition. You ignore a doctor with 5 decades worth of experience.

I'm not feigning poverty, I am simply stating that that to create the controlled environment your questions seemed to suggest for your level of proof requires funds to create that and if you really are the one seeking that, well that is what it takes. I don't need to be convinced. I already know.

Over time ya'lls real motive comes out. You are not actually seeking truth, otherwise you would not ignore the research referenced above with the kind of controlled documented by experts study you communicated you sought.

You are looking for an argument because that is part of your lively hood and Mirana was looking for a quick story too.

Bob while I do not agree with some of your statements I have appreciated your efforts to maintain a level of accuracy. Dialoguing with you two has certainly provided me with a wonderful case study of two different journalistic ethics and standards.

This will be my last reply.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/1/2012 03:08:06 am

Tim:

I have added an addendum to point out the articles you mentioned. FYI.

http://crossexaminedblog.com/

Bob

Tim

5/31/2012 07:02:03 am

What is remarkable about all of this is, Bob & Mriana do not know it, but they are actually an answer to prayer on my behalf. Just last week I began praying for souls and others to share Jesus with. If you'll look back through all my articles there is not hardly one reply. The few that did reply were Christians. This is a first and I'm thankful that they are an answer to prayer. Thank you Jesus.

Of course, this is just an anecdotal testimony because there is no way to verify what I prayed. You know, we see an amazing number of great (natural) coincidences occur after we pray and talk to Jesus.

I got another report just this morning from dear friend, reporting, how, after we (a number of us) prayed God healed a family member. Everything their doctor tried failed. The situation was hopeless. The doctor called it a miracle. I thought of Bob Mriana with a little grin. Anecdotal, yes! The joy (relief, thankfulness, happiness, and health) that family (close friends of mine) is exhibiting is proof enough for me.

I'm going to keep praying in Jesus name! I love the relationship we have with our living God.

Mriana

5/31/2012 11:22:16 am

Nah, you just gave me a good story to write, that's all. Bob just pointed out the story and I turned it into a news article. To be fair, I write for a Top Google news source: http://www.goddiscussion.com/97148/whooping-cough-halted-in-jefferson-county-washington-kingdom-league-international-taking-credit-for-halting-the-epidemic%C2%9D-with-prayer/

Bob Seidensticker link

5/31/2012 05:58:42 pm

Mriana:

So we both got articles out of this? Cool! Great minds think alike, I suppose.

On a different topic, I noticed that you’ve written a book as well. My most recent book is “Cross Examined,” a novel that explores Christianity and atheism. It’s the only fictional treatment that includes Christian apologetics and counter-apologetics that I’m aware of.

I’m always looking for interesting journalists/bloggers to send review copies to. If you’d like a copy, contact me through my blog (click on the name and go to the About page) and I’ll be happy to mail you one.

Bob

Bob Seidensticker link

5/31/2012 05:47:20 pm

Tim:

“they are actually an answer to prayer on my behalf”

What a coincidence! I recently prayed that I’d find another use for my post on confirmation bias, and here you’ve provided me one!

http://crossexaminedblog.com/2012/03/03/word-of-the-day-confirmation-bias/

“You know, we see an amazing number of great (natural) coincidences occur after we pray and talk to Jesus.”

That’s indeed how confirmation bias works. If you seek examples that support your presuppositions, you’ll be pleased at what you find. But you’re taking a biased look at the data.

BTW, Tim, I live in the Eastside of Seattle. If you have any groups that would find value in a skeptical voice (mine), let me know. I enjoy discussing apologetics with Christians, as you can tell.

“The joy (relief, thankfulness, happiness, and health) that family (close friends of mine) is exhibiting is proof enough for me.”

Helping family and friends is indeed a worthwhile goal. But does prayer deliver the results like medicine does?

Mriana

5/31/2012 10:16:58 pm

Yes, it is cool that we both got articles out of this and yes, I did write a book, but I noticed upon publishing there were still typos on it. :( Oh well. I guess I can always fix it.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/1/2012 03:10:58 am

Maddening. I know how that feels. But keep in mind that you can always upload a new version.

I did that with my book. After I got some reviews, I updated the back cover to add some blurbs. Ain't POD neat?

Mriana

6/1/2012 03:35:57 am

Yes, it is neat and when I get the time, I am going to upload a new version to get rid of those typos.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/2/2012 12:53:50 pm

“I appreciate your efforts to exercise some sort of journalistic standard of ethics.”

If I only have an interesting story after I distort your position, I don’t have an interesting story. Fair play is essential.

“Did vaccines and medicine play a part. Well certainly, but so did prayer in Jesus name.”

How do you know that prayer played a part? Looks to me like simply science at work. You have the burden of proof to show that medicine alone couldn’t account for the results that we see, and I don’t believe you’ve upheld it.

“I did not have a controlled environment.”

Agreed. All you have is a coincidence. You prayed at the same time something good was going on. Perhaps you also ate a sandwich at the same time something good was going on.

Why imagine that the praying had any more effect than the sandwich? You’ll say that there’s no reason to imagine a connection between a sandwich and an epidemic waning. I agree, but then why imagine a connection between prayer? Supporting your preconceptions is certainly tempting, but this isn’t science. Again, the burden of proof is yours and you haven’t upheld it.

“You've also stated above you've ignored my links.”

In one short post, I won’t be able to do justice to a blizzard of claims about prayer (maybe later?). That’s why I focused on your claim about pertussis.

“You ignore a doctor with 5 decades worth of experience.”

When the scientific consensus is that prayer prevents epidemics, I’ll buy it. Until then, not so much.

“to create the controlled environment your questions seemed to suggest for your level of proof requires funds to create that”

Hardly. It takes no funds to go from where you are right now (passing around anecdotes to fellow believers) to collecting the evidence that a skeptic would need (x-rays before and after, doctors analysis before and after, etc.). If a case doesn’t have any evidence, pray for another miracle and document that one then.

“I already know.”

“Know”? Why not “believe”?

This is a very odd definition of “know.” You KNOW that your house will be in the same place when you return to it. Do you KNOW that prayer cures disease in the same way? I think we have two very different definitions here.

“You are not actually seeking truth…”

As well as having God’s ear for your prayer requests, you’re clairvoyant, too?

“… otherwise you would not ignore the research referenced above …”

There’s only so much time in the day. As I made clear, I was focusing on simply your pertussis claims. I’m sure you’ll agree that doing a thorough critique of prayer claims and an honest evaluation of them could fill many books. I’ve only written a single short blog post.

“You are looking for an argument because that is part of your lively hood …”

Nope, my blog is just a hobby.

“Dialoguing with you two has certainly provided me with a wonderful case study of two different journalistic ethics and standards.”

And what ethics/standards do you see?

BTW, if there's an opportunity for an atheist to engage with your group (basically this kind of discussion but in person), let me know. I'd be interested in continuing the dialogue on this or related topics.

Mriana

6/9/2012 11:02:09 pm

Bob, I'd be less concerned about their superstition and more concerned about their agenda. They are part of the 7 Mountains, meaning they are part of the group that wants to make our government a Theocracy, teach pseudo-science and false history to our grandchildren, force women to become baby factories, destroy our habitat called earth, pump out propaganda on our TVs, computers, and radios, put 1/2 Pisces on Walmart alien ships, and brainwash our families, so that they die like other animals in the wild, instead of receiving good quality scientific health care, as their pastors rape our grandchildren mentally and physically also with their mega Walmart sized churches. That's their "7 Spheres" agenda in a nutshell and they will do it with another Inquisition, if they have to, so I'd wouldn't bother with their superstition, but use your site to get the word out about their agenda.

While you may think I'm saying this in a form of Conspiracy, I'm not. You can find out more about their agenda on the God Discussion website, but you aren't going to get them to accept modern science or anything else that isn't in the Bile. They'll only accept that a bat is a bird, humans are not animals, the earth is only 6000 years old, and that our government was started as a Xian nation, which it was not, as you know.

Tim Taylor

6/10/2012 01:05:55 pm

3/4's of all people who contracted whooping cough............ were vaccinated. Good research, entertaining and eye opening..... THANK GOD we prayed! Thanks Neil! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PXX9rOqtqsw

Mriana

6/10/2012 01:17:03 pm

Really? I question that statement, because my mother, a Xian, vaccinated me for everything possible during the 60s and 70s. I never caught Mumps, Whooping Cough, etc. I did the same for my sons and they never caught any of the childhood illnesses, not even Whooping Cough. You're statement is not valid scientifically or even experience wise. The only sure way to prevent such illnesses is to vaccinate, not pray, but vaccinate. To do otherwise and not vaccinate, is not showing that you care and love your child, despite you saying that "God is love". To reject science is to go back to a day before we discovered what caused the Plague and do nothing about it. The truth is, there was a scientific reason and answer people caught and died of the Plague, just as there is for Whooping Cough. Science is what stopped the Plague and science stopped Whooping Cough.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/11/2012 03:23:47 pm

The article referenced says this: “Seventy-four percent of confirmed cases in the county are people that were vaccinated against whooping cough.” (Source: http://www.northkitsapherald.com/news/153828135.html)

You do know that vaccines don’t usually give lifelong immunity, right? This vaccine gives immunity to pertussis for roughly 10 years (Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532581/). Okay, so 74% were already vaccinated. I guess the lesson is that we need to keep our vaccinations up to date. Is this much of a surprise?

How do you explain that smallpox killed 500,000,000 people in the 20th century but is now extinct? Here’s a hint: it wasn’t because of prayer!

Mriana

6/11/2012 10:21:56 pm

This is true, vaccinations do not provide lifelong immunity. Medical professionals use to think that, but that thinking changed, and along with it the schedule for immunizations. Not even one single smallpox vaccination is considered lifelong immunity anymore, because viruses and bacteria evolve quickly and are some of the fastest living evolving species. Thus, one of the many reasons why one is vaccinated for one flu, one years and 10 years later, need vaccinated against the a similar strand of flu. Thus, there is scientific reasons to re-vaccinate every so many years as well as update our information and medical procedures. Prayer doesn't do anything to fight against illness. If that were true, then the Plague would have ended much sooner without science.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/12/2012 02:33:39 am

Mriana:

This anti-science thing baffles me. For global warming, I suppose it's a more distant thing so you can delude yourself. But for vaccinations??

Imagine life during polio epidemics in the US in the early 20th century. Or the far worse epidemics of yellow fever, smallpox, or whatever. Do humans have this short a memory?

Tim

6/10/2012 01:24:26 pm

Obviously you've not took the time to review the data. The vaccines introduced the epidemic

Mriana

6/10/2012 02:09:24 pm

The pseudo-science data? That means as much to me as a bat being a bird, found in the Bible, means to me.

Bob Seidensticker link

6/11/2012 03:33:30 pm

Seriously?? You might well be alive today because of vaccines.

Ever wonder why epidemics of smallpox, cholera, yellow fever, diptheria, and so on aren't problems in the developed world anymore? It's because of vaccines.

It's hard to imagine this kind of insanity in the 21st century.

Mriana

6/11/2012 10:27:16 pm

It is hard to imagine such ignorance in the 21st century, esp with the abundance of information. Unfortunately, people have to be knowledgeable enough to know what is really science and what is pseudo-science. If they believe Creationism, then they probably don't know what is pseudo-science.

Tim

6/14/2012 01:23:17 am

I marvel at you two. Your characterization about my beliefs (ie. science, are not consistent with my statements even within this dialouge). You mock the last resource, call is psuedo science when it is clearly and simply investigative reporting where the man lists and shows his sources for his conclusions illustrating that for more than 7 decades, no whooping cough and then remarkably it begins, conincides with introduction of the vaccine in 2009. That is the context for his statement of 75% of the cases were previously vaccinated. You either did not bother to look at the source again, or you've ignored it, which speaks to your lack of journalistic or moral integrity for the truth.

You spread hateful things that are not true (ie. pastors rape children) about me and 99% of those like me. Talk about hate speech. We condemn those who abuse children, hurt and abuse people like that. Most of your statements are false mischaracterizations. You assume what I believe and mock creation, when I assume that means you believe "Darwins THEORY" of evolution. it takes more faith to believe that than it does in intelligent design. Here is the truth, I love science, knowledge and understanding. Many of the great discoveries were made by those who believed in God (ie. Pascal, Galileo, Newton, Eienstien) You accuse us of changing history, facts, etc..... when the truth is, you've began doing it even on this blog by spouting the propaganda that at best hyperbole and at worst hateful in places.

You feign searching for the truth, but the truth is, your actions or lack there of to research source material, spout your assumptions, your hate with no intent to discover nor understand clearly demonstrates what your true intent is as well as your methodology and lack of journalistic discipline. You have a warped sense of ethics and apparently have no qualms editing and twisting truth to fit your point of view.

Ie. a real story that could be unfolding is questioning the role of the pharmaceuticals when it comes to selling the vaccines. Fear sells when you have an epidemic. Now I don't know if that is the case, but there is enough evidence to warrant some research and offer it as a possiblity.

Truly, thank you for posting for this is a perfect example that I can use to teach from and write from that demonstrates the tactics, and lack of journatlistic integrity that is used today especially from an aethistic and humanistic point of view. Bloggers with varying levels of journalistic integrity.

Truly 2 Thessalonians and Timothy spoke of these times. They speak of the coming of Satan who is the father of lies and 2 thess 2:10 - with all unrighteous deception among those who perish because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved. For this reason God will send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie that they might be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. This is a day of judgment for all of us and we'll give an account for our lives.

Did we choose to believe the the truth and accept the one who is called the Way, the Truth and the Life, Jesus or did we reject the one who paid the price for our sins that we might have eternal life. The bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, that is why He sent His son, but He will not violate your freewill. It is your choice.

God does not desire that any human being go to the place prepared for Satan and the angels that followed him. He does not want any of us eternally seperated from a relationship with Him (God). Prayer is not a religious exercise, it is a life giving daily relationship with a loving Father.

It is my prayer and hope that you will recieve the love of the truth, but know that if not, there is a day when all will give an account of their decisions. Today is the day of salvation!

Bob Seidensticker link

6/14/2012 02:37:31 am

Tim:

“You mock the last resource”

Actually, I DEMOLISHED the last resource. 74% of those who got pertussis had gotten a vaccination. Perhaps because their immunity was gone? Vaccines don’t always give lifelong immunity.

Seriously, if you don’t understand the science behind vaccination, you shouldn’t be in the game.

And you didn’t answer my question: Why do you suppose there are no more smallpox cases? Do you suppose that could be because of … oh, I dunno … vaccines??

“You spread hateful things that are not true”

Whaaa … ? What hateful lies did I spread? Are you sure you’re not confusing me with someone else?

“you believe "Darwins THEORY" of evolution”

I accept evolution. Educate yourself about evolution and you will, too.

I assume by your capitalization that you imagine that there’s something better than a scientific theory. Nope—theory is as good as scientific explanations get. Here, again, I think you need to educate yourself about the science before you criticize it.

Here’s a short post that explains scientific “theory” and “law”:
http://crossexaminedblog.com/2012/02/25/word-of-the-day-theory-and-law/

“spouting the propaganda that at best hyperbole and at worst hateful in places”

Great to hear that you love science and knowledge. I agree that many European and American scientists were/are Christian. But you need to expand on this charge of propaganda and hate speech.

“a real story that could be unfolding is questioning the role of the pharmaceuticals when it comes to selling the vaccines.”

Sure, this could be a real story. But let’s focus first on getting you to understand the value of vaccines in human history. Maybe browsing the Wikipedia article on that subject? Without vaccines, our world would be vastly different. Who knows who might not be here because they or an ancestor was killed by a disease that today we don’t even consider?

“thank you for posting for this is a perfect example that I can use to teach from and write from that demonstrates the tactics, and lack of journatlistic integrity that is used today especially from an aethistic and humanistic point of view.”

If this is your argument, again, you need to show the problem instead of simply claiming it.

“2 Thessalonians and Timothy spoke of these times.”

The Bible says a lot of nutty stuff that can be quote-mined to serve just about any situation and support just about any position.

(And BTW, my offer stands—if there’s a Seattle-area event that I’d be welcome at, let me know. I like to chat with Christians.)

“The bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, that is why He sent His son, but He will not violate your freewill.”

I’ve never found the free will argument compelling. God seems to have zero interest in our free will. God doesn’t interfere with a rape or murder because that would hurt the precious free will of the attacker … but he’s OK with the free will of the victim being violated?? Wow—whose side is this dude on?

“God does not desire that any human being go to the place prepared for Satan and the angels that followed him.”

Ordinary human teachers are able to graduate 100% of their classes. If we imagine life as God’s classroom, what fraction of God’s students will graduate to heaven? Apparently, far less than 100%.

I would’ve thought that God could do better.

Mriana

6/14/2012 03:28:55 am

Yes, Tim, I believe other apes are our cousins and that we shared a distant ancestor. I'm glad to be a monkey's aunt too. :) I wasn't mocking the article at all. I was just telling it like it is and not even telling hateful lies. I really feel sorry for you, to be honest.

Do you know that Horus was all the way, the truth, and the light, as well as the beginning and the end, the I AM, etc etc? Krishna was also the I AM and the incarnation of Vishnu (god). Among others.

Anyway, I wouldn't bother praying for me or for Bob, but rather, my hope and desire for you is to seek knowledge and learn the truth, concerning science and the world around us.

To add to what Bob said about a theory, here is a great site to explain that, because it doesn't mean what you think it means- http://www.notjustatheory.com/ I also recommend Dawkins "Greatest Show on Earth" too.

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Whooping Cough Epidemic Halted in Jefferson County

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